68 | Herbs and Other Strategies to Support Sleep with Maria Noël Groves

Camille (00:00)
Hi there. Welcome to In the Clinic with Camille. My name is Camille Freeman. I am a Clinical Herbalist and Nutritionist. In this podcast, I share tips and tidbits that may be helpful for other practitioners. Today, I am delighted to bring you an interview with Clinical Herbalist Maria Noel Groves, who runs Wintergreen Botanicals, which is nestled in the pine forest of New Hampshire. You may be familiar with Maria because she is the author of award-winning bestselling books, Body into Balance: An Herbal Guide to Holistic Self-Care, as well as Grow Your Own Herbal Remedies, and the brand new book, Herbal Remedies for Sleep, which is the topic of our interview today. Maria's business is devoted to education and empowerment via classes, health consultations, and writing with the foundational belief that good health grows in nature. You can learn all about Maria and herbs at wintergreenbotanicals. Com. Without further ado, I'm going to turn it over to the interview. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Okay.

Camille (01:02)
I am so excited to be interviewing Maria Noel-Croes today. In particular, this interview is focusing around your new book that's coming out, Maria. So I was wondering, actually, could you just start by telling us the name of the book and just a teeny bit about it, and then we'll hop into the rest of the interview?

Maria (01:21)
Yeah. So thank you for having me. I love your podcast. I think I have listened to every single episode, which is the only podcast I can say that about. So I'm honored to be here. And so the book is Herbal Remedies for Sleep, and it's come out recently via Story Publishing on April second. And so basically, it goes into the topic of sleep as well as stress, relaxation. We cover a lot of the basics, a little bit of anatomy and physiology, lifestyle, sleep hygiene, the things you might expect at the beginning of an herb book about sleep because it's not just about herbs. Also, one of my favorite things that we in that early part is sleuthing out some of the potential underlying triggers for why somebody might not be sleeping well beyond the usual things. Then we go into the herbs. It's really a very herb-forward book. We talk a little bit about adaptogens, a lot about the nerveines, and also quite a bit about the more relaxing sedative herbs, and then a bunch of recipes for them. And so that's pretty much the basic layout for the book. And it's geared towards the general consumer, but it would also be potentially a benefit for a clinician as well.

Camille (02:30)
I was lucky enough to get a sneak peak at the book prior to its release. I've had a lot of time to sort through it, and it's just gorgeous. It's a beautiful book. I feel like it is a really valuable reference for clinicians, because I know for me, sometimes, even having been doing this work for decades, I still get a little stuck sometimes, and I need a reminder of the different options that I have. I love the idea of having this book as a quick reference for practitioners, as well as, like you said, for the general public. I wanted to actually ask you a little bit more about this because I know you are a clinician, in addition to one of our beloved herbal authors. I'm wondering about, you said this book is really largely written for a general audience, which is like a DIY approach to sleep, giving people enough information to take a stab at some of these things for themselves. How do you think about when to tell somebody, Yeah, check out some of these strategies in this book and investigate a little bit, try some of these herbs? When do you recommend that somebody might want to work with a clinician and herbalist one-on-one?

Maria (03:48)
I think for most people, when you start having some sleep issues, it's really common to have sleep issues. I think it's about a third of Americans that don't get enough sleep at night. And some of that's by choice, but a lot of it isn't. People intend to get a good night's sleep and then don't. And certainly for the folks who walk through my door as a practitioner, metaphorically speaking, since I work mostly online, it's quite a few people who are coming in, even for other reasons, usually have some sleep stuff going on. So it's really It's really common. And oftentimes it's fine. Usually it's not a life-threatening situation. It's a day-to-day chronic complaint. And so often it's appropriate to start doing some of the lifestyle pieces. You can probably play around with some of the herbs Most of the herbs are pretty safe, but we will have some caveats that we'll mention in a moment. And so for the day-to-day, certainly the approaches that we would try out are a lot in an herbal perspective, are a lot safer than, say, just jumping to a sleep medication, which can be addictive and not necessarily good for restorative sleep.

Maria (04:50)
And while there is certainly a time in place for everything, they have their own downsides. I think for a lot of folks who are just starting out, it makes sense to try a few things on their own and see if they can start to see some impact. That said, there are certainly situations where working with a practitioner is a good idea. It's always a good idea when you're visiting your doctor to let them know that you're having sleep issues and to run through at least the basics with them. It could be a symptom of something else that they might want to dive deeper in. They may have various tests that they want to run that might be very minimally invasive just to get a sense and make sure that there's not something else bigger going on beyond just to say, Oh, yeah, you're not sleeping. Well, here's a sleeping pill, which is what probably a lot of doctors will do, but there are some who will do a little bit of digging, and I just think it's good to have that rapport and communication with your doctor. When I think it becomes really helpful, especially to seek out an herbalist or a naturopathic doctor or somebody who specializes in holistic medicine would be when you're not getting good results on your own DIY things, or maybe you have a slightly more complicated situation medications.

Maria (06:00)
So maybe you're on a lot of medications or even just a few medications, but medications that are more likely to interact with a lot of our common sleep herbs. So for example, if you're on anti-anxiety medications, sleep medications, even a lot of our, most of our antidepressants, some of our pain medications, and a few other odds and can interact, especially with those more deeply sedating plants, that they can have an increasingly sedating effect on the body, which might not be a Maybe it just means you went from not sleeping well to sleeping well, or you went from being anxious to a little less anxious. But it could also mean that you fall asleep at the wheel, or that if you have apnea and you're in bed at night, that your apnea gets worse, and so you're not getting the oxygen that your body needs, and you may or may not be as able to wake up and get the oxygen that your body needs, or your heart rate might go low, you may faint. There are a lot of things that don't happen often, but they are potential risks. So it's a good thing to keep in mind, and it's a nice time in particular, I think, to seek the advice of somebody who's familiar with those herb-drug interactions and also very familiar with the herbs, which a doctor, most doctors are not familiar with herbs.

Maria (07:15)
If you're wanting to work with herbs, working with a practitioner who specializes in them and really understands the nuance will be really helpful while simultaneously communicating with the doctor and going from there. I'd say that's a really big one. Also, if you're just, as I mentioned, just simply not getting the results that you desire from your natural remedies, having somebody who can really slew through that. If you're new or you're overwhelmed, that can be another time when it's handy to have a practitioner to guide you through the process. I also want to note that one big reason why people might not be sleeping well is because of sleep apnea. I have to credit Thomas easily for really expanding my mind even more so on this topic. It was something I was always aware of, but from his teachings, and maybe even more aware. It's really common and often underdiagnosed, especially in folks who don't fit that heavyset guy who snores like a chainsaw example of person. You can be petite and have sleep apnea. You can be a woman or another gendered person and have sleep apnea. You might not snore and still have it.

Maria (08:23)
Having practitioners who are willing to look into it. It's pretty common in my practice. I'll talk with a client and ask some questions and maybe also even look at some of their basic labs. If it seems like there might be suggestive of apnea, I can't diagnose that. I'm one that's not enough to go on as a diagnosis anyway, but also I'm not a doctor, I can't diagnose. But I may suggest that they talk with their doctor about it, see if they can get a sleep study or if they can test their oxygen scores at night through one of the self, if they already have a special watch or a ring, they can pay more attention to that and see if that's an underlying pattern. If it is, talk to their doctor about it. I'd say that's another really good example where just playing around with herbs may actually make the problem worse, not better, and definitely not get to the root of the problem. Having practitioners who can go through your own history and be able to sleet things out with you and refer you with some extra guidance to conventional practitioners for more testing if needed.

Camille (09:24)
Yeah, I love that. You know what else I was thinking about while you were talking that sometimes comes up for me is that sometimes people need to be working with a practitioner who understands the flavor profiles as well, because there are definitely people out there that are very taste sensitive. I think those of us who are herbalists do have a good feel for what wins well together and what's going to suit the palettes of different types of folks. And it's not everything all the time for everybody.

Maria (09:54)
Yeah. There are some pretty unpleasant herbs that are in our sleep category, like Valerian and hops being the two biggies, I think. And you're like, oh, we'll just have a tea of that. No, thank you. And I am somebody personally who has a very acute, I think, sense of taste, and I like to drink things that taste good. So I will say that any of the tea recipes that are in this book taste good. They're not just like, Oh, it's okay. They actually taste good. And if it doesn't taste good, we opt for a different format, like a texture or pill.

Camille (10:24)
Yeah. Capsules. Good for that. I love it. I love it. Yes. One of One of the markers in my experience of a newer herbalist is somebody who recommends a tea with four grams of lavender in it. And I'm always like, oh, no, we're not going to do that.

Maria (10:44)
Lavender is nice in very small doses.

Camille (10:47)
Yeah. I wanted to back up a little bit and cast you a little bit of a more philosophical question, which is you've already alluded to the fact that sleep problems are so common. I feel like almost everybody that comes in through my clinic is, I would say, sleeping suboptimally. These days, it's just incredibly common. I'm wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about why sleep issues are so widespread and how an herbal approach fits into the other options that might be available to people who are having trouble sleeping.

Maria (11:19)
Yeah, I agree. I love that suboptimal sleep as a way of defining it. I think many of us, myself included, this is where my journey into herbs came from, was from sleep issues resulting from a post-traumatic event and anxiety and all of that that went with it. And certainly a lot of my clients come in with lots of different reasons. But I think one of the big overarching concepts here is our culture. Our culture just really does not foster good sleep. And as a result, we also have a greater prevalence of imbalances in our culture that then also tend to make us more likely to not sleep well. So little things like artificial light, we're exposed to a lot of it. We're We're often looking at our screens, plus we just live in artificial light regularly. Those things can reset our sleep-wake cycles pretty significantly, and there's a lot of good research to support that. Our stress levels, we live in a very intellectually stressful culture, and so that also can translate to our sleep later on. Not having enough time for relaxation and just being in our day to day. And I'm guilty of this myself.

Maria (12:27)
It takes a real concerted effort in this culture to to carve out time to move, to sleep, to have time to sleep. My husband is an adventurous, fun-loving person. And when I met him, he would say, Well, I'll sleep when I'm dead. I just want to play and do things. So sometimes it's that conscious choice. And my counter is that if you don't sleep, you'll be dead sooner, because studies do show that when we are constantly shirking on sleep, it shortens our lifespan. I would rather have a pleasant, well-rested life and a longer one, perhaps at that. But that's a cultural mindset that's tricky to change, especially in folks who are in those really exciting times of life where there's just so much to do, which these days seems like all the times of life are like that. We also have our eating habits. A lot of times we eat really big meals and late at night and late night snacking, and that partly, at least from a blood sugar perspective, as well as maybe some other perspectives, can disrupt our sleep quality, alcohol consumption, even modest amounts. I mean, even one to two drinks, especially in folks who are peri and postmenopausal, but even in other folks, too, can disrupt sleep quality, and we become more sensitive to those things as we age.

Maria (13:40)
People may not realize or they may not want to give up that glass of wine at night because we like it. Our work habits, and then a lot of the underlying aggravents. Working with stimulants on a regular basis of varying sorts, but including caffeine, perimenopause shifts, which I think a lot of the... I mean, perimenopause is a natural occurrence, but probably a lot of things that happen in our cultural lifestyle seem to make us more apt to have worse symptoms while we're going through it. One of those is sleep disruption. When we're going through menopause, we have more stress hormones that are floating around our system. We have less of our reproductive hormones that tend to give us a little bit of a buffer from those stress hormones. And so both during a hot flash and just in general, especially Especially during those wobble times, stress hormones tend to just be a little bit higher at no fault of the persons. And it might be good for them to know that because a lot of times they're like, What the heck is going on? I just don't feel right anymore. It could just be as simple as the estrogen levels are wobbling and dropping off, which is natural, but our exacerbation of symptoms is probably due to a variety of our cultural influences.

Maria (14:57)
Blood sugar stability is another big one that if We're doing a lot of blood sugar roller coasters. Those crashes in the middle of the night can wake us up. The apnea, as I mentioned, which is exacerbated by a lot of things, including our body weight, our blood sugar, our food allergens, all sorts of other things that can affect sleep apnea, stress, pain, reflux. We see more of most of these things in this country, and they all can exacerbate sleep problems.

Camille (15:26)
Yeah. It's interesting. One of the things I found with my clients is that if you have an extended period of poor sleep, that sometimes you just get used to functioning like that, and you don't realize how much better you feel when you do sleep. You almost get accustomed to not sleeping well. Then when people do get a few nights of good sleep, it's like, Oh, the possibility. The lights come on. Yeah. The possibilities emerge. I think for me, that's why this book and working with sleep is such a big deal, because when people are fully functioning, that's when we share our best gifts with the world. That's when we can do what we're meant to do. And that's what worries me about how many of us are struggling in this area.

Maria (16:21)
We feel so much better on a good night's sleep. Good quality sleep is very enjoyable when you're getting it. And so much more of our health is going to be more optimal when we're sleeping well. So many different things. It's really pretty cool. Although, in addition to just feeling better when you finally get some good night's sleep, I think it's also good to address that if you have a lot of sleep debt, Sometimes when you do finally get that relaxation, sometimes people experience this with herbs or supplements where they take it and then they're like, Oh, my goodness, I couldn't wake up. I just was really groggy and I needed to sleep. And while that could be a sign that the herb wasn't the choice for them. It could also just be that their body is so exhausted and is finally out of that fight or flight mode enough that the body is saying, Hey, let's hang here for a moment. I have a lot more catching up to do.

Camille (17:14)
Not done yet. I wanted to also go back to what you were saying about the alcohol because I have the ring that I got a while back, and that was one of the things that was most insightful for me when I got this because I would have just maybe like half a glass or a glass of wine or one beer and not feel even a little bit tipsy or anything. And I noticed that I would look at my sleep the next morning and it would substantially affect my sleep, just half a glass or one glass of an alcoholic beverage. And I was like, oh, I just really didn't realize. I mean, I teach physiology. I know, theoretically, how alcohol affects sleep, but I hadn't realized that amount for me personally would be such an interference.

Maria (18:07)
Yes. It really is. I love hearing about the rings. That's something that I would love to get at some point in time that I don't have yet, but I just love data. I think it'd be really fascinating. But just personally, I definitely noticed that, and especially when I started going through perimenopause, that was when it became... I already knew that if I had two or three glasses of alcohol a while out and about, and usually you're snacking on things and whatever else that's not quite typical, that it didn't help my sleep. But then once I went through menopause, it was like, Oh, yeah, I really need to pick. It's a choice of like, Do I want to enjoy a glass of alcohol and have that jovialness, or do I want to have a better chance of sleeping well tonight? And so most often the choice is, I guess I'm just not going to drink very much, which is going to be beneficial for a lot of other aspects. I was never a big drinker, but certainly after after that. And I've had a lot of clients who experience that as well. And someone really reluctant to even give it a try.

Maria (19:07)
It's like, No, I really like my glass or two of wine. It's like, Okay, well, that's up to you. I'm not your parent. I'll tell you what you can and can't do. But it might be something to play with. Maybe just give it a week and see if it makes a difference. And oftentimes they'll come back and say, oh, jeez, that really did make a huge difference. And now I have that information and I choose what to do with it going forward.

Camille (19:33)
Exactly. I think it's all about making the decision, because if you know, then you're like, Okay, well, I'm opting in or out. And that's different from mindlessly just doing what you've always done. I love that. So one of the things that I noticed about the book is that there's such a big emphasis on the Nervine herbs, which is my favorite category. Could you discuss a little bit about how you think about Nervines as a and also why they're such a helpful part of a sleep strategy?

Maria (20:05)
Yeah. Nervines are also one of my favorite categories of herbs. And working with a clientele that has a lot of stress and anxiety and sleep issues, they're definitely one of my most heavily relied upon herbal categories, along with all the bigger pieces like lifestyle and whatnot. And so I think that they really are just unsung heroes when it comes to sleep. We often, so knee-jerk go to the stronger sedatives, and certainly that was how I was in my own personal journey with herbs. And even in my clinical practice initially was to go to things like cava and Valerian. They're not super heavy hitters, but they're pretty strong relaxants. But the nerve ends are great because they have a gentle, relaxing property. Yet, even though they're not so sedating by day, oftentimes taking them at night still does have a very profound impact on quality of sleep. So something as simple as, say, lemon balm and just lemon balm alone, it's a good quality tincture. I have seen do really profound things in different clients, and also for myself when it comes to sleep, that was no less valuable than what you might get from a heavier hitter, like say, passionflower, which is one of my favorite, slightly more strongly sedating herbs.

Maria (21:20)
I think that they have a lot of potential at bedtime, but then they also are really great because they're helpful during the daytime, too. They're not so sedating. For most people, they're not going to put you to sleep during the day. You're not going to get overly sedated or sluggish. In fact, many of them, like I'll pick on my wonderful friend lemon balm again, actually enhances cognition. A lot of times people feel better and more alert but relaxed during the daytime. Then having better stress hormone management by daytime is going to make it easier to fall asleep at night because you don't have all that buildup of stress hormones over-stimulating you by day. Because the sleep stress cycle really feed itself, that you're stressed by day, so you don't sleep, and then you're sleep-deprived, so then you're more sensitive to the stress by day, and it just keeps going and going. And nervines are one way to help break us out of that cycle. And nourish the nervous system. There's some benefit to them, most of them almost right away, and then deeper impacts with regular consumption. Then there's some milky oats that is a little bit more impactful if you're working with it for a longer period of time.

Maria (22:29)
I think that's That's a biggie. Another real big thing about the nervines is that they are less likely to aggravate apnea. If you're somebody who you just have mild apnea, it's not to the point that you necessarily need to have a CPAP machine, which is the primary treatment for apnea. There's not really an herb that specifically addresses apnea. It's getting oxygen is what addresses apnea. But if it's mild, the more sedating herbs might actually make it worse, whereas the nervines usually aren't going to aggravate Then also for medication risks, a lot of those stronger sedatives are at a higher risk for interactions, whereas generally, our nervines are usually less so. An exception would be something like St. John's wort, which you could consider to be a nervine, but does have a boatload of herb-drug interactions. I'm going to say that term usually with italics because there are exceptions. Some people... I like skullcap. It helps me sleep. But if I start to work with it too often, I get a little bit of a mood funk, which isn't common for skullcap, but it can happen for me. And I'm not normally a mood funk person.

Maria (23:38)
I've had other clients who would react to one herb, but then another client wouldn't, and in a negative way. And so it's really about listening to your body. So just because somebody said or you read it on paper that this won't have this side effect or will have this positive effect, there's really a lot of personal interpretation in your body and how your body interacts with the herbs. You're going to want to listen to that above anything else, really.

Camille (24:04)
I love that point. I also love how you emphasize how sometimes what we think of as the gentle herbs can be so so effective, because sometimes they don't get enough credit for just something like lemon balm without a lot of fancy other things can make a huge difference in somebody's life, including mine.

Maria (24:27)
I do like a good quality lemon balm. Yes. Because most of the ones that are available commercially, sadly or not, it's just such an ephemeral herb. I think that a lot of the commercial, even tinctures, aren't as potent as I would like them to be for that. But home made, you can grow it as a plant. It's really easy to make your own lemon bomb tincture. I think what you're saying about the gentle and weak. Gentle does not mean weak is a statement that I've heard Jim McDonald says that I love to paraphrase. I think it really... I don't know what he was talking about. It might have been chamomile, but It would definitely apply to herbs like lemon balm as well. That just because it's gentle does not mean that it's weak. I have seen really profound impacts. I have had some clients who were able to work with their doctor to wean off medications, for example, while working with just simple nervines.

Camille (25:18)
Absolutely. I love it. I love it. So one last question, which is, how do you think about the importance of sleep hygiene and other lifestyle inputs in conjunction with herbs. Maybe I'll just add a little bit of context to that, which is that sometimes I think people might think that you can bypass making bigger changes and just be like, Oh, well, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing, and I'll take some chamomile and some lemon balm and some valerian and sleep better. I'm wondering how you weave all those things together in your work.

Maria (25:50)
Yes, I completely agree with where you're going with that, and that is that the lifestyle pieces are huge. I'm appreciating that you're asking that question because I so love to talk about the herbs that a lot of times I don't give enough airplay to the lifestyle pieces, and they are the things that matter the most. Taking that time for deep breathing, for doing your yoga class, for going out and moving, for reducing your screen time and managing when you're intaking in food or drink or whatever it may be, all the different things that have a profound impact on sleep actually matter more than the herbs in the long run. In my experience, both personally and through my clinical practice, this. If you're not addressing the underlying causes of why somebody isn't sleeping well, eventually the herbs stop working as well. You'll still get some benefit from them, but they're really, to me, more of a training wheel, a little extra support, but not the end all be all. And they're great because once you're in this pattern, sometimes it's hard to break. I do think that they're really nice for helping to break those patterns or when you need a little extra support.

Maria (26:58)
But the the lifestyle piece and the sleep hygiene piece is enormous, as well as whatever your own personal underlying things are. So maybe it's supporting your hormone balance, maybe it's supporting your stress, maybe it's PTSD trauma support, maybe it's blood sugar balance, maybe it's sleep apnea, whatever those things are really should get addressed in order to have a more deep and meaningful resolution of the sleep disruptions.

Camille (27:26)
I love how you put that, that you really I can't rely on exclusively herbs to help you sleep without making some of these other changes. But the concept of having herbs to support you as you're making the changes or as you're perhaps even going through a particularly challenging time when it may be a loss or a traumatic event or an illness or something that we've also got tools to draw on during those times until we can get back to our, hopefully optimal sleep patterns. That's such a wonderful way to look at it. I want to be respectful of your time, and thank you so much for agreeing to this interview. I know you've got a lot going on. I wanted to just ask you, first of all, where can people get the book? Also, if there's a way people can connect with you and stay in touch and find out more about your work, because I know you have other exciting things on the horizon.

Maria (28:22)
Well, thanks again for having me and for your time on this. Probably, you can get the book wherever books are sold. So anywhere that's convenient for you to get the book is completely great. So you can go online, you can go to local booksellers. I do sell the book directly through my website to folks who are within the United States and ship them out. I'll be honest and say it's not the cheapest place to get a book because I can't compete with some of the online sellers, free shipping and all of that. But it is the best way to support an author is to get the book through them. If you want to do that, there are some perks. One of the perks is that you'll get 10% off of any of my online classes and series. That's It's a pretty big discount there, potentially. I extended it even to the series, so that could be quite a huge discount right now. Then for anybody who gets the book, no matter where you got it, this year, with this book, I decided to make a bonus course that was available for everyone. And so there is an Easter egg in the book, and you can see if I can remember what that page is.

Maria (29:22)
It's in the resources towards the end and where we have the recommended resources. So page 178 under My One of the most helpful resources is the promo code. So you can get an online sleep course that will be livestreaming starting in June, and then it will be available, recorded for lifetime access. So you can get that info in the book once you have the book so that you can sign up for the course. But you can get the book through my website, which is wintergreenbotanicals.com. You can also follow me on Instagram at Maria Noel Groves, and I'm on Facebook at Wintergreen Botanicals. But I'd say the website is the big place, or wherever you want to get the book is totally fine by me.

Camille (30:02)
Oh, amazing. I'll put links to all those in the show notes and also just put in a little plug that Maria does a newsletter. So if you want to stay up to date with classes and other book-related things, that would be a great thing for people to sign up for. I get the newsletter and I love it. So awesome. Well, like I said, Maria, I'm so grateful that you spent some time with us today, and I encourage everybody to go and connect with Maria and check out her work and buy the book. Yay.

Maria (30:30)
Awesome. Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day.

Camille (30:33)
You too.

Camille (30:36)
That does it for our podcast today. Thank you so much for listening. Please check out Maria's work at wintergreenbotanicals.com or check the show notes for links. Also, by the way, did you know that I have a newsletter? You can subscribe to get my practitioner notes every Thursday at camillefreeman.com, and I'd love to see you there.

Camille (30:55)
All right. Have a great day.