81 | Starting and marketing an herbal program: Insights with Ember Peters and Oren Hercz

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Hi there, welcome to In the Clinic with Camille. My name is Camille Freeman.

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I'm an herbalist and nutritionist, and in this podcast, I share little tips

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and tidbits that might be helpful for other practitioners.

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Today, I'm really excited to bring you a conversation with Ember Peters and

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Oren Herx, both of whom are herbalists in Nova Scotia.

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And this conversation is around the intermediate herbal program that they have

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developed through the Maritime School of Holistic Herbalism.

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And whether you are an herbalist or not, I think this conversation is going

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to be really interesting to you because we get into the pros and cons of working

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with somebody else, thoughts on marketing a program,

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how to understand who your students are going to be, where you find your students,

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what to do if you're not sure who your students are, and more.

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So again, if this is something that you've considered, creating an educational

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program of any sort, I think there's

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a lot that you're going to learn from listening to this conversation.

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I'm going to let you read more about Ember and Oren on the podcast webpage.

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If you want the full bios, I think you'll find that they're both very experienced practitioners.

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Both have been in practice for quite a long time, Ember for more than 10 years,

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Oren for, well, since 2010.

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I'm not going to do the math on that, depending on when you are listening to this.

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But both of them have so much experience and so much thoughtfulness and care

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to bring to this conversation. So I hope that you find it helpful.

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All right. Hi, everybody. I'm so excited to be talking to Ember and Oren today.

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And we're going to start out with just orient people who are listening to the

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program that you all offer.

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So Ember, do you want to just give us a brief overview of what this program

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is and the mini version of what we're talking about here?

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Yeah, for sure. Hi, everybody. So Oren and I offer what we call our intermediate

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program through the Maritime School of Holistic Herbalism.

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And the intermediate program is a year-long, 250-hour herbal program.

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You know, it's fairly comprehensive, but it's not a clinical program.

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So it gives people kind of a really good foundation for maybe more like community

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herbalism, or if they do want to go on to do something more professional later, they could do that.

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So it consists of 10 weekend intensives that are live, either online or in person.

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So we have a hybrid classroom, plus pre-recorded videos to watch in between the sessions.

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So it works out to, you know, about half of the hours being live and about half

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of the half of the hours being pre-recorded and yeah that's that's kind of the

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the gist of it overall you know or is there anything you want to add.

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No, I think that pretty much covers it. Just, I mean, I think that the thing I like to say about it,

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because it does fill this kind of interesting place between sort of a beginner

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program and a clinical program that it is, I find it quite, like,

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it's quite in depth for a non-clinical program.

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I think our students are often surprised by that. Like there's like a major

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anatomy and physiology component. There's quite a lot of therapeutics.

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We talk about other issues like ethics and things that you wouldn't necessarily

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get in a beginner program.

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So, yeah, I think that's the only thing I want to add about it.

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Got it. And how often do you all run the program?

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Well, we run it once. So far, it's once a year. And it's our third year doing it.

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So, I guess we're still relatively new at it. I guess three years.

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This is, I mean, we feel like we have some comfort with it now,

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but we plan to offer it for many years to come.

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Got it. And when does it start? If people are interested in kind of learning

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more and possibly jumping in, when would the open enrollment kind of be?

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So it's open for enrollment now, and it starts in May, first weekend of May.

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And we do have a little early bird discount until the end of January for people that are keen. Yeah.

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All right. Great. Well, I think that kind of sets the stage for the rest of

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this conversation, which is going to be a little bit more behind the scenes.

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We have a lot of practitioners who listen to this, some of whom may be interested

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in the program, but others of whom may be thinking about their own development

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as professionals, teachers, collaborators, and so forth.

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So we wanted to dive into that aspect of things um

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to start out with could you all just share a

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little bit about how the two of you met and

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decided to start working on this program how did this how did this come to be

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amber do you want to do right sure so yeah i i uh i moved i started to move

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myself back to nova scotia and around 2018 2019 and me and orin met at herb gathering.

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And I think, you know, we each went to each other's classes at this herb gathering

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at the medicine of the people gathering up at our friend John's farm.

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And we really liked each other's teaching styles. We just kind of like chatted and was like, Oh, okay.

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Like there's this person has, you know, kind of a similar approach.

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We just kind of like got along with each other pretty easily.

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And we kind of just started hanging out. We had a year of what we call like

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professional courting.

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We just like went on hikes and talked about our work and, You know,

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just just kind of exploring the possibility of collaborating really,

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really loosely and really informally.

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And then we decided that we wanted to offer this kind of program and we spent

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a year planning it before we started running it.

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So we had sort of two years actually of, yeah, of kind of just getting to know

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each other and working together before we actually started running it.

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Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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Or did you have something to add? Yeah. No, I just think it was just,

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it was, it was nice to have that time to sort of feel each other out,

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as it were, and sort of learn about each other's more about each other's teaching

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style, but also about our work style.

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So we started working together. And then, you know, we saw that we were really

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compatible, because I think there's, there's lots of things that go into a good partnership.

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You know aside i mean there's there's you know

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having a good interpersonal relation like you like the person their

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teaching styles are compatible but then there's all kinds of things

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around work styles and sort of how you get stuff done

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and so that's a whole other aspect that you know

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we found that we worked quite well together so i don't

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know it just seemed like a really good idea and and

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we're all both of us also have like our own things going on

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and we're quite sort of independent in our own practices so

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i don't know i don't know i think maybe i could speak for both of

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us when i say that it was just really nice to have like

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this partnership where we had you know someone who had our back and that was

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helping us put this bigger thing together that we could not have done just on

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our own so it was my first time doing uh working on a collaboration like that

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herbal collaboration and it's just been great like it just opens my mind up

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to what's possible like when you just aren't doing everything on your own.

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Yeah i'm sorry i was just gonna

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say like that's something that that felt really important

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to both of us was was really this aspect of like you know we have

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our clinical practices and we're you know both teaching this beginner programs

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and a lot of what we end up doing is on our own right as as practitioners so

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it felt yeah it just felt really good to to be able to do that together and

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we also just very easily just became friends and have that also as like a baseline in our work together.

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You know, we make sure to like at least seasonally, you know,

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spend time together that isn't based on work and, you know,

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go canoeing or have dinners or, you know, whatever it is just to make sure that

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we also have that, have that there as well.

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And yeah, that friendship as being also a baseline in how we work together.

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Yeah, I'm curious because I think,

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One of the nightmare scenarios for a lot of people who are maybe thinking about

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this type of collaboration is, what if you start out friends with somebody and

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then there's a rift professionally?

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What happens around conflict resolution? How do we overcome where people have

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two different visions or there's some sort of disagreement?

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And I'm curious if that's come up or have you talked about that or is it just

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like, oh, no, it's just clicking and everything's going?

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Because i always have a fear of like oh wow i don't want to throw a friendship

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out the window in case something you know unusual happens in a professional

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context i'm curious if that's ever come up for you all or i guess we had the

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benefit of not really being friends.

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First you know what i mean like we were professional colleagues first and then

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we became friends so it wasn't at the outset it wasn't really i didn't really

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we didn't really have a lot to lose, I guess, in that sense.

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But now that we are friends, now we have more to lose if we were to have a conflict.

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And so if I think about it, I think I'm pretty happy to say we haven't had anything major come up.

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Ember, am I missing? Am I blocked something out of my mind?

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No, no, it's true. Yeah. But we did create like a conflict resolution process

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and something that we kind of need to update.

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But like we did talk about it of like, what if we disagree? What are we going

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to do? What's the process that we're going to go through?

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And I think it's nice to have that to fall back on just to know that we're not

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just going to like yell at each other and never speak again.

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We have this process that we're going to go through and, you know,

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it could even involve mediation or like various things to like try to resolve

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things if things went awry.

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I love that you have a little safety net just in case.

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And Oren mentioned, like, our work styles being compatible, which I think is

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really important, just like we both can feel that we can rely on each other.

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We share the workload pretty easily, I think.

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And we also are both very direct communicators in terms of, like,

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if something is coming up that we disagree on, we just say it right away,

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right? Like there isn't really anything like left unsaid, I would say, in our meetings.

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And that is also a part of our work styles being compatible is also just that

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we both feel really comfortable with that kind of communication.

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So neither of us ever feel like we're getting pressured into something we don't

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want to do or something like that.

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So I think that that is also kind of an important part of why it works and also

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why we haven't had conflict. Because it's not that we haven't had disagreements, right?

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It's that we've been able to address them really openly.

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Yeah, it sounds like trusting that the other person will just be upfront if

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anything comes up is a big part of it.

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But you don't have to try to read somebody's mind.

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You just are like, I'm going to tell you what's coming up and then we're going to deal with it.

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And I think feeling comfortable being honest, like me feeling like,

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okay, I can just tell Ember what's on my mind, and they're not going to,

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like, they're going to listen, and even if they disagree, we can have a civil conversation about it.

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Like, there's a level of trust there that, like, no matter what we say to each

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other, we're going to be respectful.

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And that makes, at least makes me feel more comfortable to bring up things that

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I might be sort of embarrassed about or shy about, or I'm not sure what Ember's going to think about it.

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So, I think that's really helpful.

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I love it. Well, thanks for sharing that. I know it's a little bit,

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can be a little delicate to get under the hood like that.

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I'm also wondering if you can share a little bit about how you've come to think

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about who the program is for and how you market it over the years.

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Because I know when you first do it, you're sort of just fumbling around in

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the dark trying to figure out, you know, what are we doing?

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And then over time, you get a little bit more clarity. And I'm wondering how

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things have evolved on that end for you all.

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Should I start? Okay. So it's interesting. Like when we first started this program,

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we thought, okay, it's an intermediate program.

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Where are we going to get, where are students going to be coming from?

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And I think the most logical thing we thought was, oh, they'll come from our beginner programs.

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Cause we both teach these beginner programs and that would sort of be the next,

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could be the next step for people.

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And what we learned actually pretty early on is that while some students did

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join from our beginner program, it was actually quite a small number.

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Like it was quite few students actually went from a beginner program to this

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program. And I think the reason for that is it's quite a big jump.

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It's not like they just did the beginner program.

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And then this was kind of like another incremental step. It's like a much bigger

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time commitment. It's much more academic.

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And it just turns out that those

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people in our beginner programs are not necessarily interested in that.

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You know, they're interested in a different quality of herbal education, which is,

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you know, more about community and just getting to know the plants and

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just they're not really so academically inclined they don't want to do that

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kind of a deep dive so so then we had to start thinking about okay well where

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where else are people going to be coming from and we started like we we luckily

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we did find people just people happened to find us that had done training elsewhere

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that were more academically inclined.

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But we also started to be a little more intentional about it and we started

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doing these workshops where we designed this workshop specifically for people

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that like wanted to study herbal medicine.

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And it was about like, if you're interested in becoming a herbalist,

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here's, you know, the things you should be considering in your,

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in your search for, for education.

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And, and there's like a bit of a hands-on component where we shared,

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you know, we, we kind of talked about our principles of like what a good herbal education is about.

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And then we also did some hands-on components where we kind of like did kind

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of a practical, you know, if it was in person, we would actually be tasting

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plants and showing like how we teach about the herbs so they could sort of understand how that's done.

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So anyway, the purpose of that was to just try to find people that are more

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serious about learning herbal medicine.

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And we did that workshop many, many times over the years. We've done it probably

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got 20 or maybe even 30 times now.

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And it also had limited success, interestingly enough. So we thought that was going to be the thing.

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But actually, we did get some students into our program from that,

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but not as many as we had hoped.

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And it was great for getting people into our orbit and knowing about us and

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getting people onto our email list.

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So it had a lot of benefits doing those workshops, but not necessarily people

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signing up to our program.

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And I think part of the reason for that is it's a pretty expensive program.

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It's a major financial commitment. And so for people that are just meeting us

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for the first time, it would be quite a big jump to jump into a big program like that.

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So, we've kind of realized over the year, a couple of years,

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is that we just need to have more and more offerings of different kinds at different

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levels so that people can just experience working with us.

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So, something we started to do last year is we did more short paid programs.

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Like we did, we've done a cold and flu series. This year, we're doing a mental health series.

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In the summer, we did like a first aid intensive. We did a root medicine intensive.

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And these were all paid. whereas before we'd been

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doing just this free a workshop to to

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get to know people and that's been really good

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too because it also like attracts people that are a little bit more

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serious they're already running ready to like pay for something and

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it's also more sustainable for us because we're actually getting paid to do

00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:39.660
our workshop so so that's kind of been a bit of an evolution and i think we're

00:15:39.660 --> 00:15:43.500
still really learning in terms of the kinds of people something we've realized

00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:47.340
just in terms of seeing who are the people in our program that are that do really

00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:48.640
well and are really successful.

00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:55.100
We find that one group is like people that are already practitioners of another modality.

00:15:55.280 --> 00:15:58.100
So like some kind of professional health practitioners, you know,

00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:01.580
we've had nurses and massage therapists and different kinds of health practitioners

00:16:01.580 --> 00:16:04.460
in our programs. And so we're starting to think more about like,

00:16:04.540 --> 00:16:10.100
okay, how can we reach out specifically to those people, maybe go to those associations and do that.

00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:13.900
So this is kind of like a new avenue and exploration for us.

00:16:15.040 --> 00:16:18.960
I don't know, Amber, is that, do you have more to add? I feel like I could speak

00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.600
more, but I thought maybe I'll pass it, pass it to you.

00:16:22.582 --> 00:16:28.582
I don't think I have a ton to add that that kind of sums it up for sure.

00:16:28.962 --> 00:16:31.362
And, you know, there's always going to be people.

00:16:32.082 --> 00:16:38.522
We have a pretty wide range of people who are who are kind of attracted to what

00:16:38.522 --> 00:16:42.642
we offer, partially because Oren and I have different audiences. Right.

00:16:42.722 --> 00:16:44.982
My audience tends to be a little bit younger.

00:16:45.362 --> 00:16:48.302
Right. Most of my promotion happens on Instagram, for instance,

00:16:48.482 --> 00:16:52.922
whereas Oren's audience tends to be somewhat older and, you know,

00:16:53.002 --> 00:16:56.842
Oren Moore uses Facebook. So we kind of have these different audiences that we have.

00:16:57.162 --> 00:17:01.542
Yeah, that we have access to. And it leads to a very interesting mix of people.

00:17:01.542 --> 00:17:06.842
So, you know, we've also had many people thrive in the program who are retired

00:17:06.842 --> 00:17:09.682
and like looking for something to like offer to their family and community,

00:17:09.682 --> 00:17:13.502
you know, when they have the time and financial resource to do that.

00:17:13.502 --> 00:17:16.342
We've you know yeah we've seen

00:17:16.342 --> 00:17:20.322
many different kinds of people thrive and it

00:17:20.322 --> 00:17:23.422
just does seem really clear that yeah there's

00:17:23.422 --> 00:17:29.502
going to be that it because the program requires a certain level of commitment

00:17:29.502 --> 00:17:37.962
and kind of academic interest that yeah people who are going to go to a you

00:17:37.962 --> 00:17:42.282
know a free one-hour class might not be the same people,

00:17:42.562 --> 00:17:45.562
actually, who are going to want that kind of academic deep dive.

00:17:45.702 --> 00:17:50.322
So yeah, like Oren said, it's just really about, okay, continuously kind of

00:17:50.322 --> 00:17:53.542
zooming out and being like, okay, where are the people who are gonna,

00:17:53.822 --> 00:17:56.602
who are, who want this? Yeah.

00:17:57.542 --> 00:18:00.402
Hey, one of the things I really want to highlight for the listeners,

00:18:00.542 --> 00:18:05.242
because I think this is such a great demonstration of this principle in action,

00:18:05.242 --> 00:18:07.982
is that no matter whether you're talking

00:18:07.982 --> 00:18:12.502
about a service like just your one-on-one herbal or nutrition consults or a

00:18:12.502 --> 00:18:17.822
class or a program or whatever the only way to start to figure out who it's

00:18:17.822 --> 00:18:23.202
for is just to do it to like take a guess and do it and then you do it a few

00:18:23.202 --> 00:18:26.642
times and you realize like oh what i originally thought wasn't quite right but

00:18:26.642 --> 00:18:27.802
now we're finding oh okay,

00:18:28.322 --> 00:18:30.962
it's not the people in the free classes it's not the people who do

00:18:30.962 --> 00:18:33.942
our introductory ones it's not you know you start

00:18:33.942 --> 00:18:36.702
to sort of be like oh these are the things people we thought would be there but it's

00:18:36.702 --> 00:18:40.302
not and the ones who are thriving are like oh wow retirees massage

00:18:40.302 --> 00:18:42.962
therapists that opens up a new avenue of like how do i

00:18:42.962 --> 00:18:45.982
connect with people who are retired and how do i connect with

00:18:45.982 --> 00:18:49.762
massage therapists that you never would have thought of from the beginning but

00:18:49.762 --> 00:18:54.982
i love thinking about marketing as sort of like a co-evolutionary process where

00:18:54.982 --> 00:18:59.862
you can't do it on your own you have to do it in relation to the people and

00:18:59.862 --> 00:19:02.382
you can't just sit at home and think about it you have to out there like,

00:19:02.462 --> 00:19:03.662
okay, I'm just putting it out there,

00:19:03.922 --> 00:19:06.282
doing the program and seeing who shows up.

00:19:07.260 --> 00:19:12.660
And then it's the two of you together, or the, you know, the two entities together

00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:15.240
sort of crafting the whole thing together.

00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:19.880
And yeah, I think it's so easy to like, try to wait till it's perfect and get

00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:20.940
a perfect marketing plan.

00:19:21.080 --> 00:19:24.760
I'm like, no, really, you just have to kind of do it and evolve it as you go.

00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:28.420
So I love, I just love this behind the scenes peek.

00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:32.000
It's so true and i think like you know these days there's

00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.900
like a lot of talk about like find your niche and you've got to like figure out

00:19:34.900 --> 00:19:38.340
who your people are and i think that's like all really valuable work

00:19:38.340 --> 00:19:41.440
to do but i think that the downside of that is people get like afraid

00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.560
of just like oh if i don't have my niche quite figured out like of just doing

00:19:45.560 --> 00:19:49.980
it and i honestly think like i've we've talked about our niche and like i've

00:19:49.980 --> 00:19:52.600
thought about it a lot but sometimes i'm just like you know what i think just

00:19:52.600 --> 00:19:58.660
like being out there and just doing something is like has been way better for me than,

00:19:58.660 --> 00:20:01.820
than all this work that I've been doing on my niche.

00:20:01.940 --> 00:20:05.560
Like there's just so much to be said just for that, just being out in,

00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:09.960
out there and having people know about you and, and they'll get a sense of your

00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:13.800
vibe and they'll get a sense of like the quality of, of like what you have to

00:20:13.800 --> 00:20:16.380
offer in some ways that sort of can create your niche.

00:20:17.360 --> 00:20:21.380
And I wanted to just add in too, right? Like our teaching is really part of

00:20:21.380 --> 00:20:25.660
an ecosystem with our clinical practices. So we use teaching as a marketing tool.

00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:29.620
Yes. We might think about it kind of primarily for our other programs to kind

00:20:29.620 --> 00:20:33.120
of get people in the door so they know about other things that we're offering.

00:20:33.280 --> 00:20:38.180
But some of those people actually might be more inclined to start seeing us in clinic, right?

00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:42.020
We've definitely had lots of people who come to our classes who actually want

00:20:42.020 --> 00:20:43.140
to see an herbalist one-on-one.

00:20:43.520 --> 00:20:46.880
So there's a lot of different things that that looks like.

00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:53.840
And for sure, for both of us, while we run our private practices up on their

00:20:53.840 --> 00:20:59.520
own, it's not a part of our program that we run together, we know that it still

00:20:59.520 --> 00:21:01.560
all supports each other, right?

00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:04.480
And me and Oren also like often refer people to each other, right?

00:21:04.500 --> 00:21:08.480
We have that kind of collaboration happening as well.

00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:16.680
And we see the benefit in how our collaboration also brings more people knowing about both of us, right?

00:21:16.800 --> 00:21:20.000
We've been teaching these, like I think the immune series and the mental health

00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:21.200
series is a good example of that,

00:21:21.380 --> 00:21:25.220
where we each do one of the classes so they're

00:21:25.220 --> 00:21:28.140
online they're open to everybody you know you bundle them for discount

00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:30.980
pretty much everybody does the bundle right so orin does one class

00:21:30.980 --> 00:21:34.820
i do the other class it means that people who would have only maybe before heard

00:21:34.820 --> 00:21:39.740
about heard about my me through me now they're also hearing about me through

00:21:39.740 --> 00:21:43.960
signing up for something because they follow orin so that that is also a huge

00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:48.880
benefit just for for both of us i think generally professionally well it's just

00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:50.880
another example, too, of how.

00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.440
Collaboration pretty much always wins out over competition.

00:21:54.840 --> 00:22:00.520
It just benefits the field as a whole when there's more people being visible and doing this work and.

00:22:01.823 --> 00:22:07.163
It's so easy to think like, oh, well, you know, there's only so many clients

00:22:07.163 --> 00:22:10.663
to go around and like, you know, blah, blah, blah. And it just isn't true in practice.

00:22:10.803 --> 00:22:13.843
It feels like it's true in the beginning, I think, for people.

00:22:13.983 --> 00:22:16.743
But then you see this in action. You're like, oh, no, it's not true at all.

00:22:16.823 --> 00:22:20.823
There's so much more than we understand logically out there that,

00:22:21.083 --> 00:22:25.383
you know, we can just just renew and renew and renew when we're working together,

00:22:25.583 --> 00:22:26.463
which I think is really cool.

00:22:27.363 --> 00:22:29.623
All right. I don't want to keep you all tuned along because I know you're both

00:22:29.623 --> 00:22:37.463
have a lot going on, but I did want to just maybe briefly touch on accessibility for the programs.

00:22:37.603 --> 00:22:42.723
I know that's a really important thing for both of you is how do we make the

00:22:42.723 --> 00:22:46.383
program accessible, but also, you know, we have to make a living.

00:22:46.383 --> 00:22:50.743
Like, there's sustainability for ourselves as teachers and clinicians.

00:22:51.163 --> 00:22:54.683
And I'm wondering if you'd share a little bit of how you think about pricing

00:22:54.683 --> 00:23:01.843
and accessibility as you're navigating these early-ish years of the program.

00:23:02.763 --> 00:23:08.783
Yeah, definitely. I think one of the things that Orn and I share in our values

00:23:08.783 --> 00:23:11.623
is really that we, like, we really don't want to have to turn people away.

00:23:11.623 --> 00:23:14.423
We really kind of want the more people the

00:23:14.423 --> 00:23:17.843
better who get to have

00:23:17.843 --> 00:23:20.863
this experience right who get to have this education and we

00:23:20.863 --> 00:23:23.923
also both recognize like the different barriers systemic barriers

00:23:23.923 --> 00:23:27.823
that exist right that you know change depending

00:23:27.823 --> 00:23:34.243
on on what people's baseline you know life is what people's backgrounds are

00:23:34.243 --> 00:23:41.603
so you know we do offer discounts and we we do say that we prioritize those

00:23:41.603 --> 00:23:44.503
discounts for people who are Black, Indigenous, people of color,

00:23:44.803 --> 00:23:50.623
people who, you know, experience those barriers on a more intergenerational kind of level.

00:23:50.823 --> 00:23:53.203
But that being said, anybody can apply.

00:23:53.423 --> 00:23:57.363
So the way that we first did it was we just had actually people self-select for discounts.

00:23:57.563 --> 00:24:00.643
So this was the first, I think we changed it halfway through our application

00:24:00.643 --> 00:24:03.323
process last year, where we actually had a description.

00:24:03.623 --> 00:24:07.943
But the first two years, we just had people self-select. When they registered

00:24:07.943 --> 00:24:10.603
for the program, they could just select a discount if they wanted to.

00:24:10.763 --> 00:24:12.183
And so a lot of people selected it.

00:24:13.623 --> 00:24:18.863
And we were really glad that we were able to offer that, but it also was hard to cover our budget.

00:24:19.483 --> 00:24:26.743
And so we're trying to really balance the desire for it to be accessible and

00:24:26.743 --> 00:24:29.723
wanting it to be available to people in the community who might not otherwise

00:24:29.723 --> 00:24:30.923
have access to this education,

00:24:31.983 --> 00:24:34.903
and also making sure that it's sustainable for us.

00:24:35.528 --> 00:24:40.328
So we changed it to making it the default for people to pay full price.

00:24:40.548 --> 00:24:45.308
And now we have a separate application that people fill out for discounts.

00:24:46.188 --> 00:24:53.068
And that actually also gives an outline with guidelines on how to self-evaluate

00:24:53.068 --> 00:24:55.528
for the discounts and choose the tier, right?

00:24:55.648 --> 00:25:00.068
So we have us kind of, okay, if you are getting, if you're paying full price,

00:25:00.208 --> 00:25:05.368
this is maybe what you're a little some kind of snapshot of what your financial

00:25:05.368 --> 00:25:06.248
situation might look like.

00:25:06.348 --> 00:25:09.348
If you're asking for a 25% discount, this is kind of what we would expect your

00:25:09.348 --> 00:25:10.568
financial situation to look like.

00:25:10.708 --> 00:25:13.848
If you're asking for a 50% discount, this is kind of what we would expect it

00:25:13.848 --> 00:25:16.208
to look like. So we're giving people a little bit more to go on.

00:25:16.888 --> 00:25:20.088
But we don't want to like have to actually do the evaluating,

00:25:20.308 --> 00:25:23.448
right? We don't want to have to get into the details of people's finances.

00:25:23.628 --> 00:25:28.608
So there really is kind of a trust that people will self-select based on what their need is.

00:25:29.848 --> 00:25:33.728
Yeah, and you know, something that's come up, especially this year,

00:25:33.948 --> 00:25:38.488
is we know that people are kind of more hard up, right?

00:25:38.608 --> 00:25:44.568
There is an economic downturn happening, and we know that everyone isn't affected by that equally.

00:25:44.788 --> 00:25:50.148
So we're realizing we really do need to find people who are maybe less affected

00:25:50.148 --> 00:25:54.088
by that economic downturn to help subsidize the people who are more affected

00:25:54.088 --> 00:25:57.388
so that we can still offer those discounts so that's where we're at kind of at,

00:25:57.908 --> 00:26:05.588
kind of right now yeah is there anything you want to add orin yeah only that it's tricky it's tricky,

00:26:06.128 --> 00:26:09.768
trying to be sustainable and also offer you

00:26:09.768 --> 00:26:12.868
know tuition assistance on the one hand on the other hand in

00:26:12.868 --> 00:26:16.708
in our early years it's been kind of nice because we we

00:26:16.708 --> 00:26:21.668
were kind of just trying to find students right so a student who any student

00:26:21.668 --> 00:26:25.828
is better than no students so there's there's actually i think like a also a

00:26:25.828 --> 00:26:30.208
benefit there where it's like if you're that can open us up to having more students

00:26:30.208 --> 00:26:33.808
especially in the in the early years where we're where we're growing our student base.

00:26:34.868 --> 00:26:39.788
And also i think like it does make for an interesting and diverse program like

00:26:39.788 --> 00:26:44.368
i think it actually creates more richness in the course because we have like

00:26:44.368 --> 00:26:49.508
people from all kinds of different backgrounds and it really creates interesting

00:26:49.508 --> 00:26:52.608
discussions in the class so i think,

00:26:53.368 --> 00:26:56.648
there's a lot of benefits that that it

00:26:56.648 --> 00:26:59.768
offers beyond you know there's there's the accessibility for

00:26:59.768 --> 00:27:02.448
the people getting the the discount but also i think it

00:27:02.448 --> 00:27:05.688
offers benefits for other people in the class too because it makes

00:27:05.688 --> 00:27:10.808
for just more interesting rich discussions in the class so yeah i think it's

00:27:10.808 --> 00:27:13.808
been good and i think we're just gonna it's we're gonna evolve it i mean this

00:27:13.808 --> 00:27:17.588
is the first year we've done it in this different way where it isn't just on

00:27:17.588 --> 00:27:20.608
the application where you can just select it we have to make like a separate

00:27:20.608 --> 00:27:22.788
go to a separate form to select it so,

00:27:23.528 --> 00:27:27.508
you know we don't want to make it harder for people to apply but we also want

00:27:27.508 --> 00:27:30.508
we do want it to be an intentional thing where people are really considering it,

00:27:31.360 --> 00:27:37.320
Because finances are a weird thing and how people perceive their finances is

00:27:37.320 --> 00:27:39.560
quite varied. And it's really tricky.

00:27:39.760 --> 00:27:43.320
It's a really tricky area. And I know there's lots of different philosophies on how to do this.

00:27:43.560 --> 00:27:47.560
And we're just, you know, I don't think we would say we have it figured out

00:27:47.560 --> 00:27:51.420
at all. We're just sort of experimenting and trying different ways. Yeah.

00:27:52.600 --> 00:27:58.460
Yeah. And I, I, it seems like a lot of people in the last year or two,

00:27:58.460 --> 00:28:02.400
it has been more challenging to fill programs just across the board.

00:28:02.580 --> 00:28:05.400
Pretty much everybody I know who has a program is saying like,

00:28:05.460 --> 00:28:09.760
yeah, probably because of the political and financial circumstances,

00:28:09.760 --> 00:28:14.880
people are just really, a lot of times people are holding back a little bit

00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:16.700
from programs they might have otherwise signed up for.

00:28:17.220 --> 00:28:19.940
So I love your point about, oh, okay, what does that mean for us?

00:28:20.060 --> 00:28:25.040
It means partly like, Like, how do we find some folks who can comfortably pay

00:28:25.040 --> 00:28:30.900
full price in order to also kind of balance things out for the folks who are

00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:32.340
not able to do that right now?

00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:38.120
And yeah, it's really a juggling act. And I think everybody's just sort of navigating it the best they can.

00:28:38.300 --> 00:28:43.400
So I'll be curious to hear once your enrollment closes what you all think about

00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:46.200
this new path and how it feels.

00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:51.100
And yeah, it's always a little bit of a guessing game to just figure these things

00:28:51.100 --> 00:28:54.040
out and how to make it work as best you can.

00:28:54.360 --> 00:28:59.520
So anyway, is there anything else that you all wanted to add about the program?

00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:05.640
Anything else you thought might be relevant for other practitioners before we wrap up here?

00:29:06.540 --> 00:29:12.180
I mean, I guess I just maybe want to say that I remember when Oren and I first

00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:15.800
started talking about offering this program and it felt really daunting.

00:29:17.380 --> 00:29:21.720
And it's been a lot of work for sure, right?

00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:25.160
We've been meeting pretty much every week for like, I don't know,

00:29:25.900 --> 00:29:28.160
four years now or something like that.

00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:34.320
And it's also just been incredibly rewarding. Like the people that we've been able to encounter,

00:29:35.610 --> 00:29:40.170
Also, we decided kind of last minute our first year to make it hybrid so people

00:29:40.170 --> 00:29:42.310
could do it from anywhere, so people could do it online.

00:29:42.310 --> 00:29:46.390
So that's really opened up a lot for us in terms of trying to figure out how

00:29:46.390 --> 00:29:50.170
to get people to know about it, about what we're offering who live further away,

00:29:50.250 --> 00:29:56.750
and really being clear with people like what our values are and why they want to learn from us, right?

00:29:56.750 --> 00:30:00.750
Like those are all kind of pieces that, yeah, I think like, you know,

00:30:00.810 --> 00:30:03.250
getting over the, if you're, if you're thinking about doing this kind of,

00:30:03.330 --> 00:30:07.970
this kind of bigger venture, this bigger project, you know, putting the time

00:30:07.970 --> 00:30:10.730
into, into planning it out, not rushing into it.

00:30:11.070 --> 00:30:14.790
And then really thinking about like, what sets it apart, what is going to bring

00:30:14.790 --> 00:30:17.630
people to your program, you know, and I think for Orin and I,

00:30:17.710 --> 00:30:21.610
what we've really realized is like a lot of people come to us because of shared values, right?

00:30:21.610 --> 00:30:25.670
Because they hear us talking about inclusivity and ecological sustainability

00:30:25.670 --> 00:30:28.410
and, you know, they get to learn from experienced clinicians.

00:30:28.410 --> 00:30:29.870
They get hands-on experience.

00:30:30.110 --> 00:30:35.230
We talk a lot about critical thinking, you know, and the live classroom.

00:30:35.250 --> 00:30:38.750
So there's a lot of things going for it that people might not be able to get

00:30:38.750 --> 00:30:42.070
in other programs, especially other online programs that might not have that

00:30:42.070 --> 00:30:43.050
live classroom experience.

00:30:43.050 --> 00:30:46.170
So yeah just thinking about you know going

00:30:46.170 --> 00:30:48.910
slow and and thinking about what you

00:30:48.910 --> 00:30:51.930
might be able to offer that that's gonna you

00:30:51.930 --> 00:30:55.110
know you're gonna find if you're if you're authentic with what you want to offer and

00:30:55.110 --> 00:30:58.890
if you're clear about what you're about then the people will will

00:30:58.890 --> 00:31:03.210
find you right too yeah yeah good

00:31:03.210 --> 00:31:06.570
work begets more good work i think for sure

00:31:06.570 --> 00:31:09.570
yeah anything else

00:31:09.570 --> 00:31:12.270
from your end or in or is that i don't know

00:31:12.270 --> 00:31:14.950
i think ember summed it up really well so i think

00:31:14.950 --> 00:31:19.010
i'm just gonna leave it there yeah yeah i'll

00:31:19.010 --> 00:31:21.790
maybe just throw in one little thing which which i've

00:31:21.790 --> 00:31:26.270
noticed over the years too is like if you are really doing your best and pretty

00:31:26.270 --> 00:31:30.750
organized and you know putting a lot of heart and soul into a program i find

00:31:30.750 --> 00:31:35.390
that the participants are usually so willing to work with you when you're stumbling

00:31:35.390 --> 00:31:39.130
around at the beginning and like making the inevitable mistakes that will happen

00:31:39.130 --> 00:31:40.710
no matter how many years you've been doing it.

00:31:41.230 --> 00:31:44.970
Like people can sense that you're coming from a good place and you're putting

00:31:44.970 --> 00:31:49.770
in the work and they're completely willing to just like work with you to overcome

00:31:49.770 --> 00:31:51.710
any little stumbling blocks that come up along the way,

00:31:51.810 --> 00:31:59.850
which I think is another beautiful example of like community collaboration evolving as things grow. So...

00:32:00.681 --> 00:32:03.681
Anyway, I'm so grateful. I'll go ahead. No, I was going to say,

00:32:03.741 --> 00:32:07.781
I think we've definitely experienced that. It's so true in some ways.

00:32:08.641 --> 00:32:11.381
I mean, I think in some ways it can be challenging when you've been teaching

00:32:11.381 --> 00:32:16.221
a program for a long time to keep it fresh. And that's sort of the challenge on the other end.

00:32:16.321 --> 00:32:20.161
But in the outset, yeah, you're making a lot of mistakes, but people can really

00:32:20.161 --> 00:32:24.481
sense the energy of trying to do something new and really trying to make it

00:32:24.481 --> 00:32:26.461
work and really trying to make it of value.

00:32:26.941 --> 00:32:30.281
And it's like you're part of something together, kind of creating something together.

00:32:30.481 --> 00:32:36.481
And I think that's pretty special and I think our students have definitely enjoyed that aspect.

00:32:37.201 --> 00:32:41.481
Yeah. And a huge shout out to our students just for their support too and trusting

00:32:41.481 --> 00:32:42.761
us, like especially, you know,

00:32:43.261 --> 00:32:46.401
I mean, like our first class for sure, we were like, all right,

00:32:46.561 --> 00:32:49.881
like this is, you know, this is really the practice run,

00:32:50.481 --> 00:32:55.521
and we really, really appreciated and felt that, like what you're talking about,

00:32:55.761 --> 00:33:00.861
Camille, Just that, yeah, that, that willingness and,

00:33:00.881 --> 00:33:06.741
and ability to just kind of roll with it and finding that to be actually like

00:33:06.741 --> 00:33:10.841
totally fun and not taking away from it. Right.

00:33:11.181 --> 00:33:15.001
So, yeah. Shout out to our students for all of their support.

00:33:16.241 --> 00:33:20.941
Yay. I love it. Well, I'm just so grateful that both of you all were able to

00:33:20.941 --> 00:33:25.721
take a little bit of time out today to share, you know, the behind the scenes

00:33:25.721 --> 00:33:28.801
and let people have a peek into the process.

00:33:28.801 --> 00:33:33.801
I think it's really valuable for anybody who's feeling alone or thinking about a bigger program.

00:33:34.061 --> 00:33:37.861
Maybe it's worth looking around and seeing if there's somebody else that you could work with.

00:33:38.041 --> 00:33:42.161
And it's really great, juicy tidbits in here about how to make that work and

00:33:42.161 --> 00:33:45.281
how to think about promoting in early years of something like this.

00:33:45.281 --> 00:33:51.661
So I just thank you again for being here and sharing all this with everyone else.

00:33:52.161 --> 00:33:57.241
I will put some contact info about the program and also how to get in touch

00:33:57.241 --> 00:34:00.561
with Ember and or Orin in the show notes. People can check there.

00:34:00.861 --> 00:34:04.561
And otherwise, we'll look forward to seeing everyone in our next episode.